Juan Viejo2
JoinedPosts by Juan Viejo2
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43
The denial of 1975 when and how did they go about it.
by Crazyguy ini was pretty young in 1975, all i remember was a few complaining at the hall after and those at the door that razed us over it.
does anyone remember how they went about denying it and when this started.
i do remember a scripture in psalms about people being mighty and living longer so this was used.
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Serena Williams Pregnant
by wisdomfrombelow innow that she has announced that she is 20 weeks pregnant and not married, what is her status in the cult?
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Juan Viejo2
I've given Serena a lot of thought in the past and I think that her parents may very well be the bottom line in re her decision to get baptized.
I can imagine that her father and mother have discussed this whole thing very carefully with Serena and given her specific guidelines about how she should walk the line of being an unbaptized Witness.
Like Prince, Serena has been very vocal and demonstrative at times about her connection to the JWs, and yet (like Prince) has never really changed their act. Some of what she does is simply reflexive as part of her winning and playing in tournaments. Running around the stadium with her sister waving the American flag is clearly responsive and showing good citizenship and pride. Not putting her hand over her heart in other situations shows her loyalty to the JWs. Telling a line judge that she'll "Fing kill you!" probably happened on one of her non-JW days.
I grew up with some young JWs who did not get baptized but came to the meeting and went out in service with their parents. Asking them why they all told me something along the lines of "my parents don't think I'm old enough to make that decision." I count them among having truly caring parents who decided early on not to have their kids locked in before they had a chance to understand the ramifications.
I also note that Venus doesn't really talk about the JW thing at all. No one has made it clear as to her status.
In any case, the whole Serena situation is full of double-speak and hypocrisy no matter what the facts may be.
JV
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51
Bearded students on Ministry school?
by NikL inso at last nights ministry school we had 2...yes that's right two that had parts and gave them with beards.. i found it interesting.
i thought the consensus was that you couldn't have any extra privileges if you wore one.. maybe the school is different?.
anyway, anybody else seen this in the u.s.?.
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Juan Viejo2
The Watchtower can come up with obscure scriptures from the Torah and the prophets to prove a point they want to make, but when there are scriptures that clearly state that you must not cut your beard or sidelocks, they ignore those and say they don't apply any longer after Jesus' time.
And yet there are clear indications that Jesus and all of his Jewish apostles and disciples had beards because that was the more or less enforced custom at the time. The only clean-shaven men were Roman soldiers and some major politicians of the time. But the Greeks wore beards and were admired and treated as men of high standing.
The Watchtower has absolutely no basis to ban beards or facial hair based on biblical standards. They are, in effect, taking a stand that is in clear opposition to biblical teachings.
JV
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16
I was Kidnapped!
by TerryWalstrom in__________________i was kidnapped today ____________.
a rainy day in ft. worth is bad news day for terry.
my elective transportation is 100% bicycle and i can get through just about all weather except rain.
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Juan Viejo2
Great reply, Terry!
I lived in Fort Worth from 1987-1994 and worked for Tandy during the John Roach era. I've been through there twice since then and the whole Hulen Mall area has completely changed. During my "single" years there in the early 1990s, I met several women who were "certifiable" in more ways than one. I guess what saved me is that I can't dance and being able to do the" two-step" was more important for a guy than having teeth or hair.
Perhaps the most significant thing that ever happened there while I lived there was my invitation to the Petroleum Club in downtown Fort Worth. I think I had $50 on me and was surrounded by at least two dozen of the richest men in the world and their ladies - you know, the big bosomed, big hair types. At least my suit was pressed and my shoes shined. I had to give a brief speech on Tandy's ability to set up computer networks in schools and small businesses. I doubt if anyone heard a word that I said, as most were chatting amongst themselves and drinking the whole time. At least it was memorable for me.
Oh, and I almost forgot: A young woman that worked as a clerical employee in my department at Tandy was an "entertainer" of sorts. She and her sister and her mother were Persian "belly dancers" on the weekends. I only found out later that they were also Jehovah's Witnesses (or claimed to be).
Sometime around 1992-93 I was working at Tandy Center. The young lady's workstation cubicle was about 50 feet from my office. One day she came over to my office and gave me a flyer about a "Medieval Times" type of faire that was being held a few miles outside of Fort Worth. She told me that she would be entertaining there with her mother and sister and would appreciate my coming to watch them. So, having nothing better to do, I drove over to check things out that weekend. I eventually found their little stage at the end of the main path that went past all the small booths that had souvenirs and trinkets. Sure enough, there she was in her belly-dancer outfit - along with her mother and younger sister doing the hoochy-cootchy.
Before they started their dance routine, the three of them came down and moved amongst the growing audience and passed a basket for tips and gifts of money. Since I knew the young lady personally, she came over to me and held out her basket. I was feeling generous, so I dropped in two $20 bills. She grabbed me and took me over to the stage to meet her sister and mother briefly before they started their dance. She told me to be sure to stay for the whole performance.
The three of them put on a performance for the ages. Every step they took, every motion of their bodies was in step with the background music. All very sensual and yet in time with the music. She and her mother were quite buxom, while sis was still "growing." Before long there was a very large crowd gathered around to watch their performance. Then, in one amazing move, they all spun around, whipped off their tops and covered their chests with their left forearms while waving their tops over their heads in their right hands. Then in one more spin managed to put their tops back on and snap them in place. I had never seen anything like that. I was a bit shocked, but at the same time realized that I had really not seen anything more than I would have at the beach when ladies laid on their stomachs with their tops off. It definitely was erotic, but not profane in any way.
The next work day she came over to my office and asked me if I enjoyed the "faire" and their dance routine. I told her that I had never seen anything quite like that. Then I asked her to step into my office and close the door behind her (office had windows, so nothing was hidden). I asked her if she and her family were really Jehovah's Witnesses - and if so, had anyone ever said anything to them about their weekend jobs?
She told me that they got a lot of flak at first at their Kingdom Hall when they started appearing at the Medieval Times Faires, but nothing more was ever said and they had never been stopped from doing it. The mother had explained to the elders that the dances were all true to form and traditional, that what they were doing was legitimate work and recognized by international entertainment groups as being in good taste and acceptable. The mother also performed at some local bars as an entertainer on "belly-dance" nights (the girls were over 18, but not yet 21). All three and the father were JWs in good standing and after the initial inquiry the other JWs never said anything more about what they did for a living. She told me that if someone asked her what she did for a living, she'd just say, "I work at Tandy Corp in support services."
I've often wondered if any other JWs had similar jobs like theirs and managed to survive the JW gossip hounds. I've previously shared a story about a JW husband and wife that sold custom bras and girdles at "house parties." They went through hell over that as it was the husband who was the "fitter" and took measurements.
Oh well, I digress...
JV
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16
Why does Jehovah choose certain people to rule with him in heaven?
by iWant2Learn inin other words, what good works have the 144000 done to be secured a place in heaven?
i am told they have already been chosen.
does that mean that jehovah also knows our future?
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Juan Viejo2
I asked that very question to Lester Dugan, a lifetime second generation JW who was, at that time, our "Circuit Servant" in Southern California (mid 1950s). I was in my early teens at the time and the whole concept of the 144,000 was completely unintelligible to me.
In those days, there were more of "the Remnant" still around (at least until the more recent second generation of "anointed remnant of specially chosen ones.") We had maybe 8 or 10 members who "partook" of the emblems each year in our KH. Brother Dugan's mother lived in our town and went to our Kingdom Hall, so we saw him about twice a year even when he was not our Circuit Servant. When he visited he often would gather the children and teenagers around and allow them to ask him questions about the Bible.
One Sunday afternoon, just before the one hour "public talk" was about to start, Brother Dugan set up a section near the front of the seating area and then asked us if we had any questions. There were often some very good ones like:
"What color skin did Adam and Even have?"
"How did God keep the salt water of the oceans from mixing with the fresh water of the lakes from mixing during the flood?"
and ... (my favorite)
"How do the 144,000 know that they are of the remnant and destined to go to heaven when they die?"
It's been many years, but Brother Dugan answered that question with a lot of caveats. If I remember most of what he said, it went something like this (not a direct quote) :
"Do you know what instinct is like? How some people have certain talents that seem natural to them, but unachievable for others? How very few people can become artists or musicians almost without trying, while others can try and take lessons but never succeed at those skills? How some people just know where they are and never get lost - while you or I can not find our way home without a map or a guide? Those are ways that the 'anointed' know that they are members of the 'Little Flock.' If you do not know instinctively that you are one of the chosen, then you are not part of that privileged group."
As the group broke up, the younger ones still had no clue what he was talking about. But I thought at the time that I grasped the concept that he was trying to convey without giving away any "secrets."
But a few years later, while out in door-to-door service with an elderly sister who also claimed to be "anointed," I mentioned in passing what Brother Dugan had told us during that meeting. I'll never forget her response:
"It's not like that at all. I don't know where he came up with that explanation, but it's nothing like that. But I can't tell you how I know and you would not understand anyway. So just focus your mind on the preaching work and what the New Earth will be like. You will never know what being 'chosen' is like. It's best if you don't ask those kinds of questions."
I had one other opportunity to converse directly with an older brother who claimed to be a member of the 144K. His response to me was to simply ignore my question and tell me to "focus on other things." If I remember correctly, I was embarrassed and somewhat angry with his response. I know that the whole thing was a total mystery to my father. My mother wouldn't talk about it at all. I'm sure they were as baffled as I was about that belief.
Lester Martin DuganObituary CondolencesPublished in Press-Enterprise on Oct. 14, 2004DUGAN, LESTER MARTIN Age 96, passed away Wed., 10/6/04, in Hemet, California. Lester was born January 28, 1908 in Beaver Co., Oklahoma. He was a dedicated full time minister of Jehovah's Witnesses for more than 70 years! Lester is survived by his devoted wife, Teressa Dugan. His loving son, Jim W. Dugan and his wife, Florence of San Felipe, Mexico. His 8 step-children: Robert Sola, Terri Murphy, Erin Burks, Cathy McInnis, Shaughan Murphy, Charles Murphy, Patricia Murphy, Anne Calles and their children. He has two grand daughters: Kathleen Parsons of Ramona, CA and Elaine Taber of Yucca valley, CA. He has 4 great grandchildren and 2 great-great grandchildren. A memorial service will be held at the Mira Loma Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Mira Loma, CA on Monday, October 25, 2004 at 7PM.JV
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16
I was Kidnapped!
by TerryWalstrom in__________________i was kidnapped today ____________.
a rainy day in ft. worth is bad news day for terry.
my elective transportation is 100% bicycle and i can get through just about all weather except rain.
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Juan Viejo2
Terry,
When I lived in Fort Worth, Hulen Mall was the place to go to meet "friendly" ladies. And I don't mean that in a bad way. There was another mall up north of Fort Worth that was similar in many ways. I think the single (and some not so single) ladies would go there to troll for "one nighters."
During a period when I was split with my wife (we lived over by McCart and Alta Mesa), I'd go over to Hulen Mall to get some dinner, just wander around, and maybe go to a movie. The ladies were always very friendly - smiling and saying "hi" to me as I just wandered around with a cup of coffee in my hand window shopping. If I sat down on one of the benches and just "people watched" for a bit, I was sure to be approached for a friendly conversation that often included, "so are you married?" If I answered "separated" or "almost divorced" - that was like being "better than single." I was sure to get invited to go dancing or out for an "adult beverage." Of course, those situations usually happened when I was just hiding out from the extreme heat or cold outside - depending on the season.
I worked at Tandy Center in downtown Fort Worth (hey, Terry! what do they call that now?) and would often go down to one of the bars that looked out at the ice skating rink. I was usually only there for a few minutes by myself or with a male co-worker before being invited to join a group of ladies at their table.
Yes, Fort Worth was unlike anything I had experienced in the years I lived in California where women would blow a whistle and call security if you approached them. Texas women could be very aggressive and loved it when you'd just go up and say hello. And they cut right to the chase; I had a librarian ask me out and I was still wearing my wedding ring. The nice thing about them was that they were very comfortable dealing with rejection. All I had to say was, "sorry I'm waiting for my wife (or someone)" and they'd back off or say, "maybe next time?"
I guess there are worst things that could happen to you than being kidnapped by a lady Texan. Oh - those were the days...
JV
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Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS!!
by JT inyes, i too have wondered how an assembly that is held in a fully paid for assembly hall, with no food service, could possibly have $10,000 in expenses.
i suppose the bethel speakers have transportation expenses - maybe $1000 or so.
as for rent on the assembly hall, well you have already paid for it once, why pay again?
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Juan Viejo2
The real question we should all be asking is: Who, specifically, is benefitting from all the money the Watchtower brings in every year. Who gets the dividends? If there are plusses every year, how and what are they used for? Where are all those dollars being moved? Where does the "drain" flush the money left over? What are the objectives of the profits from invested money? Downpayments on new properties and buildings? If so, are those properties and buildings in themselves not profits? Are all buildings and properties (without exception) being used only for Christian functions, training, printing, and expenses?
JV
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158
Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS!!
by JT inyes, i too have wondered how an assembly that is held in a fully paid for assembly hall, with no food service, could possibly have $10,000 in expenses.
i suppose the bethel speakers have transportation expenses - maybe $1000 or so.
as for rent on the assembly hall, well you have already paid for it once, why pay again?
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Juan Viejo2
The absolute hypocrisy of the Watchtower is apparent when they put out magazine articles, Governing Body videos, and local pleas for contributions indicating that one of the major expenses to the Society is the cost of conventions being held worldwide. They treat conventions as contributing toward their "expenses" - when in reality they are income producing "cash cows." And they have been for years.
We all imagined the costs associated with the Society's "International Conventions" (1950, 1953, 1958, 1960, 1963, etc.) that were held in massive stadiums and ballparks. When you think that 250,000 attended the last Sunday meeting in New York in 1958 (spread across two major league baseball stadiums and a fair sized trailer camp) - just imagine if every attendee contributed just $1.00. That's a quarter million dollars for just one day! And that convention and the one in 1953 were both eight-day conventions with contribution boxes spread around everywhere and income producing food service tents in all three locations as well (using mostly contributed supplies and groceries). I have no idea how much "International" conventions actually produced in cash and other donations, but I heard from sources connected with the early 1960 conventions that "all expenses were paid well before the weekend sessions began." What is not usually mentioned is that many local businesses and suppliers also donated funds toward the conventions because they knew their business would benefit greatly (restaurants, gas stations, hotels, etc.) by having such huge crowds flood into New York during weeks when no baseball games were scheduled.
I was fortunate to get to know a former Bethelite that served in New York HQ during the 1950s who was a helper to the NWT translation committee. Among other things he shared with me was the fact that the Watchtower never failed to make huge amounts of money from the summer conventions. Only a few, mostly in southern Europe, failed to make huge profits. In some cases, stadium rents were reduced or paid for by local businesses just to get the huge influx of new visitors during weeks when new customers were limited.
What we all need to recognize is that the Watchtower is made up of several corporations. Few, if any, lose a dime and all have carryover income into the next year no matter what the expenses may have been. Even with all of the payouts, the WT may have to make to cover legal expenses and settlements for child abuse cases each year, those expenses barely make a dent in their bottom line. Then add on the profits from selling all those buildings in Brooklyn and New York City...
The reality is that the Watchtower should never have to plead for money. They have plenty and their cash flow is extensive and continuous. They have cash and investments scattered in family and small non-profits in the USA and other countries. They are like Scientology and the Latter Day Saints organizations - major cash cows that face no real tax liabilities with any consequence. And the side benefits include having control over the hearts and minds of thousands of mental slaves - slaves in hearts, minds, and bodies - to their fairy tale, made up, and clearly unsupportable "religious teachings." They are just another segment of the classic TV preachers who spend all their time begging for money and yet giving nothing back to the poor and confused they are supposed to be serving.
JV
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24
whatever happened to rotation? wt study to April two.
by waton inwith all the emphasis on hierarchical succession in that wt, , what ever happened to mentioning of the refreshing, liberating "rotating of positions" period, the time of great increase?
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Juan Viejo2
A comment on the subject of rotation of elders and "specialty servants" (those who conducted the WT meeting, Ministry School Servant):
[Note: You can tell the era I came from (1950s/1960s) because the descriptive title of "Servant" was replaced by "Elder" and "Overseer" in the late 1960s. Those changes alone forever damaged the feeling of equality among brothers within Kingdom Halls. If someone is assigned to "serve" the congregation, his "service" is seen as non-threatening and a positive gift of time and effort to the other members of the congregation.]
But if someone is seen as an "elder" or "overseer," then for the rank and file it becomes "boss/employee" --- "manager/subordinate" --- "owner/slave" relationship.
I remember how uncomfortable my male relative JWs felt having their descriptive titles changed. My father actually went to various friends and told them that he would always consider himself a "servant" in the congregation. "I don't make a very good boss. I want to be able to say to a JW friend, 'have a nice day' or 'good luck in field service' without it being interpreted as an order."
My then wife (1965-1970) - who continued to attend meetings after I stopped going - found it very hard to think of some of the brothers as "overseers." She also shared with me that their attitudes and personal approach to the non-assigned brothers and sisters were quite different.
Even though "ministerial servant" was a new position in the congregation and had not yet been fully defined, it was clear to her that some of those chosen for the "pre-elder" position were already acting like "princes" or some kind of "JW royalty." She left the JWs just before the1975 fiasco finally blew up and I think she was just tired of the false pride being shown by some men in the congregation who had titles - something she never saw when we were dating and were first married in the mid-60s.
It was the same with "Governing Body." Before that, we considered the President and Vice-President of the Watchtower Society as being special men with broader responsibilities. But unlike Russell and Rutherford before them (who were considered to be the "leaders" of the religion with hotlines to Jehovah's throne in heaven), Knorr and F. Franz and Hayden Covington, while admired, were not considered as being particularly "special" in a theocratic sense - at least not in the field. I know that those working in Bethel at the time had differing opinions about the "unique responsibilities" assigned to officers of the organization.
While a majority of readers of this forum will most likely have come on the JW scene well after the early 1980s "massacres" at Bethel and throughout the organization - and are unlikely to have recognized the changes in the "power grid" of the Watchtower, I can assure everyone that with that change in authority, position titles, and implementation of the Governing Body arrangement, everything changed forever. Some JWs recognized the changes and a few rebelled. Others (like they were when attending meetings) were not paying attention or simply did not care - or sleeping with their eyes open - except during prayers when they actually caught some shut-eye.
I saw the changes in my wife and among my family members when those new policies and naming arrangements were applied. That was also a reason for the huge exodus after the failure of 1975. A lot of JWs would have probably let the failed prophecy thing slide by, but the fact that "servants" were now overseers, mass purges were taking place throughout the organization, and every congregation saw more JWs leave or fade away.
Now the "Governing Body" is trying to slip out of the nooses they have placed around their own necks. They are saying that they are nothing special, that they have no special "telephone line" to heaven, that they are capable of making mistakes, and that they carry to responsibility for what the Watchtower organization does.
I remember my father and mother crying on the phone in 1966 when they learned that I had been disfellowshipped. They begged me to repent and "return to Jehovah." My father was so distraught that he could not speak more than a couple of sentences to me before turning over the phone to Mom. That was the beginning of the big move toward shunning. My parents hated the whole thing but reminded me that "the brothers in New York are directed by Jehovah" - leaving them no choice in the matter. My mother then told me that my father even gave up his position as an "overseer" in their congregation - because he could not in good conscience serve and enforce a policy that he disagreed with - but had to live under.
JV
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18
The "Paradise" as promised by the Watchtower
by Saethydd ini was thinking today about the descriptions of the future "paradise" presented by the watchtower, and i was struck by something about it.
most of us are aware that the watchtower promotes an interpretation of the apocalypse that would result in the immediate execution of 99.9% of the population with no hope for resurrection.
additionally, we have been told about the large group of people that are supposed to side with satan at the end of the thousand year reign of christ.
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Juan Viejo2
One night a friend and I were discussing the possibility of surviving Armageddon and living forever. I asked him what he would want to do if he made it through.
"I'd go boating down the Colorado River in a canoe without a life jacket," he offered. "Then I'd want to go over Niagra Falls." After further suggestions that he might want to ski down Mt. Everest, swim across the Pacific Ocean without any life support equipment and wrestle a shark or an Orca, I gave up on him.
"Hey! If you know you can't die - or if you do you will be restored automatically - why wouldn't you do those things. Remember "no pain or tears"?
So you could go for broke and take any chance you wanted. If you died, you'd be re-resurrected as long as you followed all the JW rules.
Makes you stop and think for a minute. Just what would happen if you were killed in an accident or stretched your luck too far?
JV
DUGAN, LESTER MARTIN Age 96, passed away Wed., 10/6/04, in Hemet, California. Lester was born January 28, 1908 in Beaver Co., Oklahoma. He was a dedicated full time minister of Jehovah's Witnesses for more than 70 years! Lester is survived by his devoted wife, Teressa Dugan. His loving son, Jim W. Dugan and his wife, Florence of San Felipe, Mexico. His 8 step-children: Robert Sola, Terri Murphy, Erin Burks, Cathy McInnis, Shaughan Murphy, Charles Murphy, Patricia Murphy, Anne Calles and their children. He has two grand daughters: Kathleen Parsons of Ramona, CA and Elaine Taber of Yucca valley, CA. He has 4 great grandchildren and 2 great-great grandchildren. A memorial service will be held at the Mira Loma Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Mira Loma, CA on Monday, October 25, 2004 at 7PM.